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This proposed thread can be as useful as you like, or it can go by the wayside...if you like. It's not my thread, inasmuch as it's not devoted to me. But in it I'll make myself available to those who would like to ask training questions of me. If you don't, you're welcome to ask anyone you like.

My hope is to do what I do elsewhere, and that's provide training help to others. I am a former pro trainer, who now makes his living training trainers. In my business I sell the three books I wrote, and the 13 DVD's I've produced about my method. If that interests you, wonderful. See ALDUCKS sponsor Southwind Outfitters. He'll take care of you. I'm here in an advisory capacity on training topics.

If you perfer some methodology that is opposed to the type of training I teach, that's your privilege. I'll be glad to help, but I do not, and have not ever stated or suggested that my way is the only way.

My hope is that this thread is successful in providing a spot that is devoted to training issues, rather than social ones. We'll see how it goes. I hope this becomes a ready source of help for anyone who is looking for it.

EvanG

I have no shame, I'll start.

Scenario:
Set up for a seasoned level test. Double with a short blind. Dog front foots the marks and runs the blind. Control on the blind is passable (steady progress to the bird and in control) but less than the quality the handler knows the dog has. Dog is put on the truck and brought back out after other dog runs. Bring dog to the line and run to the same blind location for a second time. Control was noticably better and the dog exhibited more confidence.

Question is - do you recommend rerunning blinds to the same location when you aren't on a pattern blind field? Why or why not?

Thanks in advance for the answers and help.

Ok... I'll go too.

My dog is doing seasoned level work. She got her first seasoned pass at Bear Branch in the fall. She does double marks, blinds, diversions, walk-ups, etc. Pretty much anything I ask of her. However, she does the work in a VERY slow, deliberate manner. She tiptoes into the water like something is waiting in there to bite her. It seems to me like she is doing the work because I want her to do it instead of enjoying being out there.

When we hunt she is quiet, attentive, steady, and picks up the birds. Not quite as slow as at a hunt test, but still slow. Even cripples don't seem to get her going. She chases them down, but still doesn't seem to REALLY enjoy it. She retrieved probably 70 ducks and 30 doves this season, plus one big ole Canada Goose. I have seen vast improvement in the execution of her work, but almost none in the speed in which she gets it done. I just want her to enjoy being out there as much as I do.

People have told me that you can't make a dog have drive. I understand that, but there must be something I can do to make it more fun for her. I have tried shot flyers, live pigeons, and fun bumpers. None of that seems to work. She is my first dog, and I won't even pretend to know much about dog training and handling. I know there is more inside of her. I just need help getting it out. I would appreciate any advice you could give.

Thanks,
Gary

Nice thread....

Generally, once a dog is past early Transition when pattern blinds are a normal course of progression, I don't believe repeating blinds in any manner, or at any time is a good practice. That said, I have run some pretty meaty blinds now and then that I got so much out of I kept a note in that dog's journal entry to come back in 4-6 weeks and run it again. In the meantime I drilled on the skills and factors he struggled with. I hope that makes sense.

Mike Lardy once noted that when you repeat marks or blinds the dog would often repeat the same mistakes. I've noticed that in others' dogs when they repeated. But more importantly, we are training them to do two bad things.

1. return to an old fall
2. to repeat the same errors

Of course they don't always repeat errors, but it's a needless risk. I think you're better off to run more blinds with the same ingredients your dog has been seen to struggle with.

EvanG

Gary,

I'll tell you something that Rex Carr told me about a dog I brought to his place for fieldwork & MY personal training. He said "It looks like this dog has had a lot of good training that he's having a hard time showing. He's so mechanical it makes me think you may have overlooked an important principle. Leave something in it for the dog!" He was right in my case. I had allowed my training to get out of balance.

In your case it also sounds like your dog has gotten a lot of good training. But I wonder if the balance hasn't been tipped in behalf of mechanical skills? With all you've done to get her blinds up to par, I'm inclined to suggest a couple things.

1. Stay out of tests until she has shown a pattern of better field attitude.
2. Run twice as many marks as usual vs. half as many blinds as a routine.
3. If you aren’t familiar with Walking Baseball, learn and run it once or twice each week.
4. Don’t tweak her for fine lining, or too many factors in the blinds you run.

Follow this pattern of training for 4-6 weeks, and keep a journal. Study her, and give her time for this treatment to take a natural effect. Keep me updated, and we’ll try to keep things in better balance.

I must ask though, was she a pretty stylish pup?

EvanG

Line manners.....
why is it that 'creeping' is more of an issue when training HRC style with the gun in hand(especially on multiple marks) than it is when training AKC style without it? How do I correct on a 'creeping' issue with gun in hand as a solo trainer? I know this all goes back to basics but the gun seems to just jack them up more & I'd like to see the same line manners for each.
Might I add....this lil' fire breathing dude acts like he's on cocaine & could spontaneously combust at any given minute!

I think you may recall me saying this at a seminar, but dogs are situational learners. In each situation are environmental triggers; sights, sounds, smells, etc. Together, the triggers of each situation provide dogs with expectations about it. If you've run dogs in hunt tests you've noticed that it didn't take long for them to get cranked up just a little higher within a short time.

The long gun is a physical trigger (cue) about the game, and the dog expects excitement when he sees it. You would do best to get this under control with the help of a partner - someone with some dog training knowledge to help make corrections while you sit on the bucket and point the gun as usual. A heeling stick would be best, but some e-collar correction may also be used. I just happen to think that e-collars are generally a second rate tool for line manner issues because they tend to cause an unstable response in a dog you're trying to stabilize.

Do you have someone like that to train with?

EvanG

[quote]Do you have someone like that to train with?/quote]

Absolutely! And, that's what we been doing. Apparently not getting enough training time in though . He's gotten better but, I'm telling you.....this lil' guy wants it BAD!!! It's been a heck of a ride with him . We're working through it though with good results. We just got to make it a repetitive ordeal & instill it. He gives me a heart attack at the line every time . Fun though .

So, if we get 'creeping' then my buddy gives a correction we should probably deny the retrieve, right? Given the fact that the dog has more than likely got distracted from the mark anyway due to the correction plus broke the 'sit' command?.... Thus take the situation as an opportunity to correct on the problem at hand, line manners....

I must ask though, was she a pretty stylish pup?

EvanG[/quote]

She has always been slow. Having said that, If I say "you want a fun one?", or "Hey hey hey" she starts bouncing around and takes off like she was shot out of a cannon. Line up for marks, then it's right back to the slow entry.

I am not familiar with the walking baseball drill. Could you elaborate?

dothanduckhunter,
I have a dog that reminds me of exactly what you're talking about. I took this dog to a seminar in AR that Evan was putting on. He told me of a story about a dog that a fellow presented him with that seemed to have "lost the love for the game". If I recall, after a great deal of rehabilitating, that said dog went on to win something big(?).....hope Evan elaborates on that..... great story!

Situational is right
Dogs that run both venues do sometimes show different behavior in each venue.

This is one those situation where you needs to be aware of the training that YOUR dog needs and make sure he gets it.
Yes we do often throw marks in training without holding (and working the action of the gun) but be aware that you will have a gun when running AKC stakes.
In HRC of course you fire and work the action of a PUMP. In AKC the guns are out in the field but the handler still holds (and according to the instructions from the judge) may also be asked to shoulder and track.
So, if thats an area that any of your dogs need work, make sure you include it in training days even if no one else is doing it.

I have found that mine does not creep in HRC, or in AKC when we are "stationary." But she will hop a step in front on a walk up in AKC as the 2d and 3d birds go down. I had to learn to hold the gun right handed, and operate a heeling stick left handed. And, as you would guess, its a bigger hop in a real test than even the most realistic training day.

Maybe instead of setting him up toward the first mark thrown(which requires more movement following the gun) we'll start setting up more for the middle throw , reducing the need for any unnecessary body movement and only head movement needed....

Rational thought and linear logic would say that you are correct. However, line experience will show that the first bird down is usually the last picked up and you better be sure your dog gets a good look at it. On multiple marks, that memory clock starts ticking as soon as the first bird goes up and you need to be sure your dog has a good point of reference for that fading memory. When judging, I am amazed at the number of average handlers that hinder their dogs and at the same time see some exceptional handlers that get an average dog through a tough test because they really assist their dog in seeing and remembering marks. Dogs that heel and sit absolutely still definitely have advantages on the bog swing triples because they are quiet and composed and focused. Sometimes a 2 sided heeling dog is an advantage also.
Get Rorems DVD The Art and Science of Handling Retrievers and watch it and read the manual also. Watch it several times. You will see something new each time. Best training/ handling DVD I have ever seen. Some good stuff here that will make any one a better handler.

I appreciate creative thinking. But try to separate nuances, or trickery in handling from training the dog to a higher standard. Use your handling ideas when the time comes. But right now it's time to train, and keep training - not just until a short term fix appears, but until the new behavior of better steadiness is a habit.

Keep working with your friend, and remember this key principle when making corrections. Again I'll paraphrase Rex, but I think you'll see the logic. In order for corrections to be effective, the influence of the correction must exceed the dogs desire to disobey. That means, basically, don't nag. Make corrections that produce a distinct change in the dog's behavior. Then uphold that standard over time.

There will be plenty of tests later. Keep him home and train him. Form a new habit of steadiness. The drill work I mentioned earlier is only part of it. This will also sound familiar, but change his 'expectations'.

Do things that alter the old "one, two, three, GO" expectation they get from tests and trials. Do multiple marks, in which you take run a poison bird blind before picking up any marks. That type of thing. Remember, they can count!

EvanG

"AND his expectations of what behavior is acceptable. i.e. "the new standard"
Where's that Thumbs Up smiley when I need it ???

Another question: What is the biggest difference between Pattern blinds and Taught/Permanent blinds and what are the advantages/disadvantages of one versus the other?