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 Post subject: heartworm question
PostPosted: April 20th, 2015, 5:12 pm 
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Banded Black Duck
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Its been a while since I've been on. When life gets ahold of you time will fly by. Needless to say its been a rough couple month stretch in the Batey house with my daughter being hospitilazied twice. Luckily she is ok and healthy. To make matters more stressful I took drake in for a yearly check up Saturday and the heartworm test came back positive. He's been on iverhart since the beginning and we always administer the pill at the first of the month. The Dr stated she had another case, same situation, just last week. We discussed the treatment protocol and I studied up on the American heartworm society website to see what needs to be done. My question is have any of y'all dealt with heartworms and the treatment? She also said she was filing a report with iverhart to see if they are going to cover expenses of treatment. She said its possible they will. The vet has records where I've bought half a yr supply every six month over the past 6 yrs for Drake. Either way if they help out or not the treatment will be done but I would like to know if you all have any experience with iverhart or this type of situation where the medication was ineffective.
Thanks!!

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 Post subject: Re: heartworm question
PostPosted: April 20th, 2015, 5:54 pm 
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Tundra Swan
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One of my pups was diagnosed with heart worms a couple of years ago. She was on heartgard. It was a "light" reading and I elected to go with the quick kill method as she was young, active, and not symptomatic. She handled the shots well and handled her 2 months of crate rest well. Came back to training without any issues and now has her HRCH under her new owner.

I chose the quick kill because my vet and I felt she could handle it, I wanted those suckers dead before they could cause damage, and I wanted to get back to training asap.

Good luck and give me a call if you want more details.

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 Post subject: Re: heartworm question
PostPosted: April 20th, 2015, 6:34 pm 
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Banded Black Duck
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RF wrote:
One of my pups was diagnosed with heart worms a couple of years ago. She was on heartgard. It was a "light" reading and I elected to go with the quick kill method as she was young, active, and not symptomatic. She handled the shots well and handled her 2 months of crate rest well. Came back to training without any issues and now has her HRCH under her new owner.

I chose the quick kill because my vet and I felt she could handle it, I wanted those suckers dead before they could cause damage, and I wanted to get back to training asap.

Good luck and give me a call if you want more details.

Thanks for the info!
My vet is waiting on the second test to come back, she sent to an outside lab to confirm the results. We'll be doing the fast kill method as well. As of now he's showing no symptoms. She didn't mention if it was a light positive or heavy positive, I'm going to ask out of curiosity. From what I've read about the treatment and how calm drake is in his crate for long periods I think he'll handle It well. It would be another story with the other dog... Shee crazzzzyyy

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 Post subject: Re: heartworm question
PostPosted: April 21st, 2015, 8:43 am 
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Tundra Swan
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There is ALOT of information about heart worms and preventatives that go un-discussed.
Iverhart and Heartguard both use Ivermectin as the active ingredient. Ivermectin is without doubt the most commonly used preventative. The commercial products like Heartguard have to be safe for all dogs. Collies and a couple of other breeds apparently have a problem with Ivermectin. So, in my opinion, the dose from these treatments is too light. We use a stronger than recommended dose of straight Ivermectin. Hundreds of dogs over decades and we have had no heart worms found in any of our dogs. We have had dogs come in that already had them. Dealing with that right now and we are doing slow kill method. We have used fast kill method in the past and had no issues. Cost is a factor

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 Post subject: Re: heartworm question
PostPosted: April 22nd, 2015, 6:53 am 
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Canvasback
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Agree with ken. ivermec them, much more effective. I do it with all mine monthly as well.


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 Post subject: Re: heartworm question
PostPosted: April 22nd, 2015, 11:11 am 
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Gadwall
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I am not a vet but I have recently stayed at a Holiday Inn Express. Milo was diagnosed with heartworms in May of 2013. My regular vet said the test showed a light positive as well. He had been on Heartguard since a young pup and never missed a dose. Heartguard agreed to pay and my regular vet suggested starting the treatment. Another vet buddy (Dr. Leland Davis in Union City TN) told me he had a lot of success with using a slow kill method of Advantage Multi to kill out the heartworms. So, I decided to go that route. My regular vet said she didn't suggest it as she had never used the method. Her husband, also a vet, talked to Dr. Davis and we decided to try the Advantage Multi method first. Started with a month round of Doxycyclene and 2 doses of Advantage Multi the first month. Then regular dose of Advantage Multi every month thereafter. Along the way, I think after about 5 months, we did another round of Doxy. We never stopped training and he showed no signs of any problems. After 1 year, the vet did the test again and it came back with no trace of heartworms. Vet was amazed. My dogs are now on Advantage Multi year round. J Paul Jackson has had a lot of success with this method as Dr. Leland Davis has. Might not work in all situations, but worked for us. Might depend on the severity. Might have gotten lucky. Might have been a stupid decision that worked out for us. Guess I will never know. The Advantage Multi rep was at TN River's recent hunt test and gave a little spill at the banquet. I think he paid for the dinner as well. He had an update on statistics but I can't remember enough to give an update.


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 Post subject: Re: heartworm question
PostPosted: April 22nd, 2015, 11:26 am 
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Tundra Swan
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Heart worms are a huge problem and prevention is the best approach. Invariably there will be some that slip through and develop into adult worms even when on commercial preventative. The Fast kill method is expensive....basically being held hostage by drug companies. When the drug was not available due to a shortage, some people went back to slow kill out of necessity. It worked long before the fast kill method was available. Ivermectin kills eggs and larvae which is why it is used as a preventative. They do not claim that it will kill adults. So, what is actually taking place is that you are preventing the dog from getting new worms while waiting for the adult worms to die off. Obviously a dog that has an infestation is worse off than a dog that has a slight problem. My personal belief is that the Ivermectin can weaken the adult worms and shorten their lifespan. Once the adults die off the dog will test negative again shortly after. That is in no way an indication that there was no damage done by the worm. Heart and lung tissue can be severely damaged even by a few worms.

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Last edited by duckdawg on April 22nd, 2015, 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: heartworm question
PostPosted: April 22nd, 2015, 2:10 pm 
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Gadwall
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According to the Bayer/Advantage Multi rep at TN River's banquet, ivermectin type medication does exactly as Mr. Ken described. Basically kills them off each month and if they are re-infected during the month, the next dose kills them off. He said that research shows that Advantage Multi stays in their system throughout each day of the month, providing continuous protection, and that is why its so effective. Of course, he sells Advantage Multi too. Lol. Supposedly using the Advantage Multi for the slow kill method is better than the ivermectin based slow kill methods due to its chemical makeup and residual protection. Heck, I don't know if what I did was best or not. Might have just got lucky.


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 Post subject: Re: heartworm question
PostPosted: April 22nd, 2015, 4:44 pm 
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Harlequin Duck
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Location: Thomasville, AL
Are y'all mixing the ivermectin with anything else?

I have always mixed ivermectin with Valbazen
I mix it 10 (valbazen) to 1 (ivermectin)
Then, administer 1 full CC per 10 lbs of body weight
This gets you to the 1/10 cc per 10 lbs of body weight of ivermectin

i got this from mixture guys with large coondog kennels several years ago

Myself, nor any of them have ever had a dog test positive

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 Post subject: Re: heartworm question
PostPosted: April 22nd, 2015, 4:54 pm 
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Tundra Swan
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I dose Pyrantel Pamoate for intestinal worm prevention at the same time each month but it does nothing for heart worms. I've not heard of using Valbazen (which is actually Albendazole) for dogs. I know the tapeworm med I use is not strong enough so maybe I'll try it.

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 Post subject: Re: heartworm question
PostPosted: May 5th, 2015, 11:48 am 
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Tundra Swan
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Did a little "Internet" research on this since the topic came up.
The active ingredient in Advantage Multi apparently does build a residual effect over about a 4 month periods and stays there as long as monthly dosing continues.
The cost is what is so prohibitive about the Advantage Multi and why more people aren't switching.
Since it is Prescription only....
Advantage Multi 6 month supply for 55 - 88 lbs dog = $99
Vet visit to get the Prescription also about $100 plus the time off work to take each one to the Vet totals about $400/year/dog.
25 dogs in the kennel would run about $10000/year...I won't be switching to Multi anytime soon.
A person with two dogs could probably do Multi for about $800/year...that's manageable.

Just like Ivermectin the active ingredient that Multi has for heart worms (Moxidectin) is also available over the counter for "other" animal uses. Moxidectin @ a dose of 100mg / month for a 55-88lb dog (recommended by Bayer) Cost about $2.75/mnth $33/year.

Ivermectin cost about $0.22 cents /month / dog. So Moxidectin cost a little more that 10 times as much.
Multi (without the Vet costs included) Cost about 75 times more than Ivermectin.

Moxidectin comes in a variety of forms but one pour on liquid (like Multi) is called Cydectin (for sheep). The concentration is different (Multi is 25mg/ml and Cydectin is 5 mg/ml) so 20ml of Cydectin contains the same amount Moxidectin as 4 ml Multi.

By the way....the Heartworm injection (Proheart) that is a 6 month or 1 per year injection is the same drug (Moxidectin) . I do not have cost breakdown for this option but since a once per year version is available it would automatically save money by reducing Vet visits.

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 Post subject: Re: heartworm question
PostPosted: May 5th, 2015, 4:23 pm 
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I have been through having a dog that has never missed a dose of Interceptor, and test positive for heartworms. We suspect the dog got bitten by the resistant strain of mosquitos in Arkansas or West Tennessee. By the time he was having symptoms, the damage was done. He was treated by the vet, and has never been the same.

Since I switched my dogs to Ad Multi, I haven't had a single dog test positive for heartworms, and I've never had a tick or flea problem. The dogs and I spend a bunch of time in Arkansas during duck season, and occasionally in the spring and fall running tests close the Mississippi River Delta. I've been told of breakthroughs on several heartworm meds including Ivermectin, and the only thing that seems to be working consistently is Ad Mulit. I've had good results with Ad Multi on ticks as well. They bite the dog and let go, or they die trying to feed.

Bayer has had a promotion for several years that includes 2 free doses per box of six. I pay around $95 for eight doses. That's $144 per dog per year not including the one time office visit and heartworm test. Ad Multi is a topical medicine and there is no chance of a dog spitting it out after you turn your back. The half life of the drug is 34 days. If you dose the first of the month or every 30 days, the drug is in the dogs system 24/7.

All the pro trainers I know and respect in West Tennessee and East Arkansas use Bayer Advantage Multi for preventative, and I know of one, J Paul, that has used it as an adulticide with doxy on heartworm positive dogs with a light worm load, like Demone described. That being said, in my mind, Im using the best preventative I feel like I can give to my dogs, no matter where in the south we are.

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 Post subject: Re: heartworm question
PostPosted: May 6th, 2015, 9:21 am 
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Gadwall
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Advantage Multi includes flea protection too. So for me, it is actually cheaper than the Heartguard I was using when you also use Frontline or whatever flea/tick prevention. I am unsure why, but also never have ticks either even though it doesn't say it's for that purpose on the box.

I am not paying that much either. Maybe because I am buying for 3 dogs at a time. My vet actually calls the Rx in and has it shipped to my house as they don't carry on the shelf. I guess the rep doesn't come by and buy lunch. Lol

Apparently we have a big problem in the West TN area and that's why all the pros around here are using Advantage Multi. I guess some day, they will be resistant to it too and we will be using something else but for now it works.

I fully understand what Ken is saying. With a kennel full, it could get real expensive. I just have 3 of my own.


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 Post subject: Re: heartworm question
PostPosted: May 6th, 2015, 11:14 am 
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Banded Black Duck
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I get advantage multi for 12 a dose roughly. I get 8 doses per box running under $100 per box. I am not required to test my dogs yearly as long as I'm keeping them on it. My vet takes my word for it pretty much. I love it, get great results and its all they need every month. I've had hook worm issues every time I have gone away from it. Rowdy got them when he was in Georgia and on ivomec and bama has gotten them here while on ivomec. I send adv multi with every dog I send off for training now, gets old treating for worms every time I get them back.

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 Post subject: Re: heartworm question
PostPosted: May 8th, 2015, 10:05 pm 
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Harlequin Duck
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Just a side note for you guys using ivomec based products. There are 3 strains of heart worms. Ivomec only kills 1 of those strains. Something to keep in mind if you're using one of those products.


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 Post subject: Re: heartworm question
PostPosted: May 9th, 2015, 7:22 am 
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Tundra Swan
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Muddycreek....interested in that info. What is the source. Would like to read about it. Up until now, no one had claimed to actually have identified a species of worm that Ivermectin would not work on. It was only suggested that there might be one..
Moxiedectin is available as a generic just like lvermectin. So if it is better everyone will eventually be using it. So far the only advantage I can see is that Moxiedectin stays in the system between doses whereas Ivermectin does not . Everything else appears to be marketing. If they are really interesting in getting people to use it, they should make it available without prescription. Moxiedectin is OTC

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 Post subject: Re: heartworm question
PostPosted: May 9th, 2015, 1:14 pm 
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Harlequin Duck
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I'll find some sources on it. Mine came from my uncle who is a vet when I was asking him about preventatives for my dog. I use the three month flea and tick pill and sentinel for heartworms. I'll try to find you some info though.


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 Post subject: Re: heartworm question
PostPosted: May 10th, 2015, 8:48 am 
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Banded Black Duck
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All the info has been helpful. Drake had his first treatment shot about two weeks ago. He's doing really good. Hasn't seemed to bother him before or since the treatment has started, no side effects. I think he is wondering why he's spending day and night kenneled up with the exception of going to do his business.
I think I'll be swapping to advantage multi after this. Iverhart has been good in the aspect of covering the full cost, easily accessible and easy to deal with. They're gonna send me a yr worth of meds when the treatment ends. So I'll be selling those several months from now. I've just heard of to many failed test with people I know who gave the meds religiously to feel comfortable giving it. The bad thing is, iverhart didn't act surprised that this happened.

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 Post subject: Re: heartworm question
PostPosted: May 10th, 2015, 9:43 am 
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Banded Black Duck
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Has anyone ever heard of a dog testing positive when on adv multi? I can say for certain I have not to this point. If I'm not mistaken it is approved for medicating light loads, is this accurate?

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 Post subject: Re: heartworm question
PostPosted: May 10th, 2015, 1:58 pm 
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Justin I don't think there is a documented case of a dog testing positive on multi yet.

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